How is the outliner? The site descibes it as “simple”. How does it compare to Omnioutliner?

Tim

Tim: It’s not really a replacement for OO (great app, that), but it does one thing pretty well. Like Curio, it allows you to make any object into an outliner object. I haven’t played with it much, but it seems like a pretty mature set of documents and photos (or their “replicants”) could be arranged in interesting ways using the outline functionality.

In other news, that OO3 is looking sort of cool, eh?

For me, the show-stopping misfeature of DEVONThink, which I experimented with at some length a few months ago, is it’s gratuitously opaque database. This is stored in the user’s Library in a series of uselessly named folders and files. People who like iTunes’ transparent library and are disappointed with iPhoto’s use of the filesystem will be all to familiar with this lazy, shortsighted development. This is not normally a problem, but when the application’s specific aim is to sort and ease access to information which will inevitably used elsewhere (you couldn’t possibly spend all your time in DEVONThink), and the application is closed source and could disappear at any time, it renders it useless.

As Merlin says, it doesn’t claim to be an outliner, although the ability to add tickboxes is welcome.

By the way, readers of this blog may find Ted Goranson’s ongoing About This Particular Outliner series of interest. The new column (released today) is entitled Task Management and Outlining, which is right up our street.

Does the new version allow for a Mail.app email to be dragged and dropped into it? Because so much of the info I’d want to keep track of is in emails, DEVONThink’s inability to do this made it impractical for me. I wrote to Devon and they said it was Apple’s fault, so it’d be interesting if they’d fixed it.

Drag and drop from Mail.app doesn’t work AFAIK, but I think there are AppleScripts to import selected emails from Mail.app, Entourage, and Eudora.

This does get to one point I’m still wrestling with, which is whether DT can seamlessly sync information between the database and Finder files/folders without an explicit import/export. For example, I’m still considering which import/synchronization method lets me pull in all the files of my “txt” folder while keeping the originals editable (and Quicksilver-appendable) and while transparently staying synced and editable within the DT database. Still working on that one.

I registered DT ages ago because it is a great product. However, I’ve found that it’s ultimately overkill for what I needed—even though it is über-cool.

The main reason you throw stuff into DT is so you can index it, organize it, and find relatedness—the main feature of the app is the little drawer that shows you similar files. Most of the time, you just don’t need this unless you have THOUSANDS of files, as you would if you were, say, researching a dissertation. But even then, DT gets better the more you subdivide and organize those files into subfolders, so there’s always a large amount of effort involved in organization in order to reap the benefits of the semantic classification. I had to ask myself whether it was worth all that effort (syncing, importing, exporting, capturing, organizing) to get at those connections, most of which I knew about or could have figured out anyway. It wasn’t. There’s also the fact that learning to make connections, see similarities, etc., is a skill unto itself that’s worth cultivating.

So to my mind, from a GTD perspective, tools like DT are actually -not- what you want to be using b/c they a) require constant tinkering b) encourage an over-stuffed filing system and c) replace decision-making (what do I need this for? is it actionable? etc.) with deferral (I’ll just let DT index it…)

I’ve come to the same opinion about wikis, which I used to spend lots of time maintaining and adjusting. Ultimately I spent more time fiddling with the wiki, throwing stuff into it, and paging through it than I did doing my main job, which is reading and writing. YMMV, but in the end I’ve settled on plain old index cards, just like in high school. This isn’t a knock on DT, which is a great app and for which I’ve put down my $40; it’s more a response to the endless search for the ‘all-in-one’ app that does it all, etc. etc., especially in the context of GTD, which is all about actually looking at your data rather than relying on search to look at it for you.

Here’s an article I wrote of how I use DT:

http://matt.makalumedia.com/archives/000223.html

(Lately, however, I’m using a combination of DT and Hog Bay Notebook.)

A little OT, but from reading your post, I wonder: where is the fine line drawn that GTD goes from saving time, to wasting time?

I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but at what point do we start accumulating more lists and spend more time maintaining our processes for keeping track of things, than actually getting those things done?

I tend to give new ideas/apps/systems 2-3 days max. If I can’t get my brain around it in that time, I deem it not worth my time (or my brain’s just not flexible enough…which is entirely likely). I’d rather be getting at those things, than creating more spaces for me to look through and maintain.

perhaps I’m not embracing the spirit of GTD - i’ve not read the book, only 43folders.com :) - but it seems to work well enough for me. balancing the maintenance with the actual work is the ultimate goal, no?

I much prefer the mail-like interface and lucene search engine in Hog Bay Notebook 3.5.

But I wonder if such applications will still be necessary with the new spotlight search features of Tiger (OS X 10.4)?

I’ve been user of DT for over a year now. I haven’t used for outlining or task management but I do use it extensively for storing bits of information I find online. I select the text I want to store and use the service ( cmd-) ) to dump the text (and links) to DT. Periodically I run through the new material and organize it into folders. DT’s auto-classify makes this last bit very easy especially now that I have over 1700 articles in it.

The only hassle I’ve had is with the database becoming corrupted, but DT’s backup function saved me there. The closed DB format is not a problem as the incoming information is clippings not files and DT exports well enough that I’m not worried about losing the data if the company goes away.

I’m using DT as a big, fairly flat filing cabinet for mostly PDF, rtf and txt content, although I did just dump a bunch of mov’s in there as well. Images get looked after by iView Media Pro.

So, if I quickly need to grab whatever stuff I have on, say using spot-color channels in Photoshop, or everything I have on transparency in InDesign (I’m an IT trainer amongst other things), then a quick search in DT gets me there.

Again, I’m curious whether Spotlight in Tiger will supersede DT for me.

I have all my DT prefs set to “copy to database folder” (even for unsupported file formats) so everything ends up in one big directory in ~/Library/Application Support/DEVONThink/Files/ and and I then delete the originals from wherever they originated on my drive.

It feels a bit weird doing this but it seems to work and it keeps my ~/Documents directory nice and tidy!

Prior to 1.9 my main bugbear with DT was speed: I’d get the spinning beachball quite a bit on my 867 PowerBook with 512mb of RAM, but 1.9 seems much more responsive.

So DT for me is really about maintaining a freeform reference database of sorts. Files that get worked on frequently don’t find their way into DT. They stay in ~/Documents

DT has nothing to do with my GTD setup whatsoever, except to the extent that it represents my digital filing cabinet. I use Vim to manage my todo.txt, with folding for each context, and for any other files that are in play on a regular basis.

I don’t use the outlining or wiki features.

Cheers

Richard Sandilands

I should also mention that, as an experiment, I recently set Acrobat up to catalog all pdf’s on my hard drive. So now I have lightning fast searches through Acrobat and search-phrase highlighting in pdf’s (which you don’t get with DT).

Best to let the cataloging process run when you don’t need to use your machine as it can take over for a while, but the resulting index is pretty cool.

Has anyone tried sticky brain? It looks quite interesting. Similar concept to DEVONthink.

Is there a list of all file types that DevonThink will accept? I had a trial version a couple months ago and found I could not put together a full listing of files related to a subject as there were some file types that are not accepted. DT does have the broadest range of files accepted when comparing Curio and Entourage Projects (projects does not accept Keynote or some other integral files to projects I work on).

I have been looking for a tool that would allow me to add keywords to files and group files around a project (article, presentation, client project, etc.) Many times the same files are used and in some cases the files have diparate uses.

i’ve used sticky brain. i’d rather use Voodoo Pad than Sticky Brain.

DEVONthink is different from both of them though; DEVONthink is more of a “I research a lot of things and need to index all sorts of bits and pieces,” application.

I used Sticky Brain in the past, but after it once corrupted itself and then copied over its own backup, I gave it up and never looked back. It was cool for a while, and I was quite pleased with the concept and ease-of-use, but once burned, twice shy.

I recently paid for VoodooPad, and really, really like it. But for completely different reasons. VDP is for big projects with a lot of interrelated information, for instance, a paper I’m writing regarding Puritan attitudes in Elizabethan England regarding sex and death. There’s a lot of stuff, and using VDP helps me see new relationships and connections. Very cool stuff.

DevonWhatever is something I’ve tried a half-dozen times, and could never get to the point where my effort was made worthwhile. Enter, catalog, copy, convert: whatever. I can organize my files using the Finder just fine, thank you.

The last version of DevonThink I tried, saved it’s database in a propriety format. Thus, you had two choices then: 1) Either import everything IN permanently…or 2) Just link to your originals on your HD. Number 2 seemed pointless to me, why have two copies of everything (and if I remember, DT did not necessarily update its own versions when you updated the originals?) And Number 1 - well, I personally want my data to remain in it’s original format, or be able to be restored for migration - which DT did not offer when I tried it. I see DT as a storage/organisational app. But in order to ‘store’ and manage files effectively, they need to be easily saved, and just as easily recovered again in their original format. Software that has propriety formats are a bit risky in this sense (same for Ulysses). Having said all that, I haven’t tried the latest version of DT.

These are the uses I have for DevonThink:

1. In GTD terminology, I use it as my digital Inbox. I throw there every bit of information that I just don’t know where else to put. I even stopped creating small text files with info about projects, I’m just putting them into DevonThink. It’s ridiculously easy to retrieve those files with a simple search. When times come to review, I file accordingly. For those who don’t like the fact that you have to file or DT would render useless, remember that filing must be fun and it is fun filing in DT. It could be easier, though.

2. I keep in DT my PROJECTS and SOMEDAY MAYBE lists. I keep my action lists on paper, as I find my binder more readlily accesible and easier to scan.

3. As a knowledge base for client support. I used to keep the knowledge in my head, knowing which google search to do when I didn’t remember, say, the exact syntax for a regexp. Now I simply copy the instruction into DevonThink, add a few keywords. It’s the out of your mind magic.

4. As a repository of music and software mini-reviews. Sometimes I just don’t remember if I liked certain band or not. The same for software I evaluated and just don’t remember if were useful or not. So I write it in DEVONThink.

5. As a small Wiki.

Which uses I don’t have for DevonThink: I don’t use it for web browsing, I’d rather like to have Firefox communicated to DT via an extension. Don’t import tons of PDFs, though I might in the future.

I don’t care too much about the proprietary nature of its database. You can export the data anytime you want and, at this moment, DT is the best application, the most thoroughly searchable freeform database. I believe most Wiki apps, including Instiki and VoodooPad would benefit enormously from a better designed search engine.

DevonThink can help you to work in a true GTD spirit: it unloads your head and you can trust that you can find the info later on.

Let me describe my favorite “dream feature” or “wish feature” for DevonThink:

I visit a site, I like it for some reason, I easily bookmark it in Firefox, and add comments, which in turn triggers a new item in DevonThink, which in turn may or may not post it to del.icio.us.

Gustavo,

Have you looked at MacJournal? It seems that it does the same thing as what you’re describing (well, not the dream feature stuff), and it’s free. I don’t ask so that I may make you regret your decision, I’m just wondering if I’m missing something in your description of DT that makes it clearly better than the (free) MacJournal.

Jeff,

I think the best thing about DevonThink (and the thing that sets it apart from a lot of the other programs) is its ability to pull in a lot of different formats. You can drag in text and RTF, of course, but it also imports Word files, PDFs, graphic files, any Quicktime-based multimedia, etc.

When DevonThink imports PDFs, it pulls out all the text into it’s database so all your PDFs are fully searchable. For example, I have about 100-150 research articles that I am using for my dissertation. I’ve imported them all into DevonThink, which allows me to not only view them all in the program, but do (superfast!) searches through all of them.

In fact, when I do a search for a term in my DevonThink database, not only does it pull up all the articles with that term, but it pulls up all my relevant notes, and any of my articles (which I also keep in the database).

All in all, it’s a pretty cool program. My biggest dream for it, is to incorporate some sort of map view (a la Tinderbox). Then I could live in it all day!

The closed database does make me nervous sometimes, but I do keep backups (both of the database) and a full export backup (which saves all the included entries as regular Finder-based files and and folders).

Merlin:

I’ve been dashing (very unproductively) between a mountain of txt files, Mail.app, Entourage, two Moleskines, and an Instiki wiki trying to fashion the best solution for managing an amorphous collection of work, web, writing, and extracurricular projects…. It’s like tending rabbits, I tell you.

Man, I have a pair of pet rabbits, and they’re way lower maintenance than what you just described. :) They’re even litter trained.

Not that it’s my business to tell you what to do, but it sounds less like you need another super cool app that does everything and more like you need to scale back, use less tools, and use the ones you do use more effectively.

So, I’m going to turn your question around on you: what exactly are you using each of your tools for, and where can you refactor? I ask this for selfish reasons: I’m asking myself the same question, and hopefully your answers will help.

Cheers.

Doug,

I’m still confused. MacJournal also imports PDF, word, text, RTF, and quicktime formats. It does save them in a proprietary database, though it can also create a backup copy in plain text, just in case. And it searches really fast.

I suppose it might be limiting in that it does not allow you to display in a variety of ways (column, outline, icon), but otherwise, they seem pretty similar. And that’s why I’m asking. If I can get a free program to do the same thing as a paid-for one, I’ll always opt for the free one. It just seems that people are passionate about Devon, and I don’t yet see it.

Wait a second. I just discovered a big difference. MacJournal, as far as I can tell, does do fast searches, but not inside PDFs. Which might be the One Big Thing. Is that right? I, like Merlin, would love to find the One Essential Application which would take care of everything. Is Devon it?

Like those who’ve used DT before and who couldn’t quite embrace it, I must admit the latest version — 1.9 — is truly something else.

The way it indexes PDF files is fantastic. The speed is a vast improvement.

I let it copy PDFs and text files into its database, and create links to images, etc, and these links are instant when selected.

As a test I threw a folder with a mixed bag of items [more than 3000] into it and let it do its thing. It didn’t take too long and I’m now tempted to let it index a lot more.

According to VersiontTracker the new version has :

Completely overhauled user interface

New preferences

Im- and export plugins

Sychronization function

Extended text editing capabilities

Automatic Wiki-style links

User-defined labels

Easier navigation

“Action” menus

Improved WebKit integration

Extended support for QuickTime movies & sounds

Rewritten search function

Dramatic speed improvements

…and much more

ps. For what it is worth, I had a look today at the beta version of the expensive upgrade for OmniOutliner 3.0, and the “improvement’ appear to be basically eye candy.

Jeff,

Yeah, PDFs in DevonThink really become an integral part of the database, rather than just “linked to the interface” (which seems to be what’s happening in MacJournal). It’s been a while since I’ve checked out Dan Schimpf’s excellent program. I always like it (and I can’t figure out why he doesn’t start charging for it), but DevonThink covers what MacJournal does and more. DevonThink does a great job of pulling all PDF text into the database, so it can be searched (and if you have TextLightning you can even have it convert your PDFs to RTF format; although I’ve never felt the need for that feature).

DevonThink really seems to be a program you can both write it and store in. I would imagine some users could stay in it all day. It can handle your text, your PDFs, your images, your Quicktime media, etc. Additionally, the upcoming Pro version is going to have the ability to insert tables (which seem to indicate some sort of database fields - a nice feature of Tinderbox) and the ability to download and store whole web sites in the database (a la Sitesucker).

I sound like I work for them (I don’t), but it’s a great program. Some caveats, of course: I’m always wishing for a Tinderbox-like map view, the outliner will never replace Omni’s or Inspiration for that matter, and the closed database makes me continually wish for something XML based. Additionally, everytime I get into a “nothing but ASCII text” mode, I want some other sort of tool. But, so far, it’s the best thing I’ve found.

Doug

Merlin,

Did you see the Beta of OmniOutliner 3 was released on Friday. What a great outliner! What are your thoughts?

Tim

I use DT primarily as a notetaking app. I wasn’t aware of MacJournal; it looks on cursory inspection like that does much of what I use DT for. However, DT’s interface really fits my head.

I’ve seen lots of other apps that could be used for taking and filing and searching notes in various ways: Stickies, TextEdit, CopyWrite, MacJournal, VooDooPad, Hog Bay Notebook, Tinderbox, etc., all having different strengths and weaknesses. But for me, the DT UI is the one that clicked; it feels comfortable to me in ways the others don’t. As a result, I actually use DT to take notes, after a couple of years of taking all my notes in untitled Eudora messages that I sometimes couldn’t find again later.

I like some of DT’s smaller features, too. I like highlighting text; I like the mini word processor features (named styles, rulers, etc); I like the ability to create HTML links and Wiki-style links to other DT documents; I like the import capabilities and the HTML renderer (my other main use for DT is holding onto web pages I want to revisit later and/or blog about); I like the multiple views; I like the export-as-RTF; I like the fast search; I really like the ability to create “replicants” (aliases) of a document to facilitate filing the document in multiple places in my hierarchy (wish I could do that with printed documents); I like the password protection. I expect to very much like the ability to create a table document (basically like a database table, I think) in the upcoming DT Pro. And the ability to have multiple DT databases at once — there’s a sort of hack that lets you switch databases in DT Personal, but I’m told Pro will let me have multiple DBs open at once.

I don’t use a lot of DT’s features — I don’t store PDFs or images in it yet, I haven’t yet put all my email into it, I don’t have enough documents in it to find auto-classification useful. (And I doubt it’ll ever be useful for automatically sorting into categories like “Funny web pages” and “Interesting quotes”.) I don’t use the “concordance” feature (listing every word in the DB), though I think it’s cool.

But for what I do use DT for, it does what I want and works the way I want it to, better than any other app I’ve seen. I’ve talked to a fair number of people to whom the interface doesn’t feel natural, so I know it’s not for everyone. But I sure do like it.

…As for Spotlight, see DEVON’s Spotlight vs. DEVONthink page.

Some of you might be interested in Haystack. I haven’t used it yet, but I am watching it.

I think DevonThink fills a gap that will only exist a while longer. I like to think of my WHOLE Mac a a repository of information and the problem is not putting more information onto it, it’s filing and refinding things later. Spotlight (coming in Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger) will allow me to file things more loosely and yet still find them easily. Then DevonThink may find itself superceded, like Notepad was before it.

I’ve tried DevonThink and Agent, Xnippets and other apps, but have forsaken them all. Instead, I’m just organizing manually into folders, and searching with OS X. I don’t have to worry about data holes because Program A doesn’t recognize certain file types. I can search PDFs. I can add rudimentary “metadata” automatically (date created, modified, etc.).

For an organizational tool to be truly superior to my laissez-faire approach to organization, it’s got to embrace open standards and integration. If I decide I want to build upon the info I’ve collected, I don’t want to worry about how I’m going to import/export it to another program.

It also has to be easy to add metadata that helps me to further organize what I’ve got. I’d like to see future GTD apps enable automatic embedding of metadata. iTunes is great in this respect, I can easily edit searchable data for multiple songs at once, and then create smart playlists based on various criteria. It wouldn’t be difficult for future apps to embrace this model.

Lastly, multimedia aids are often necessary when doing research, and I’d like an app that allows for the management of images as well as text. If I had a collection of, say, 100 famous paintings, and wanted to link it to textual data or video clips, I’d be hard pressed to find one application that could handle them all. Ideas aren’t specific to a certain file type, so software that presumes to aid the brain in this respect shouldn’t be either.

My two cents…